Making Your Business Investable with Patrick S Weston (Part 2)

Episode Transcript

Jake Braun:

Welcome to Kickin’ it with Kapok, a podcast about business stories and marketing advice. I’m Jake. And I’m Mirela. This is episode 18, “Making Your Business Investable with Patrick S Weston Part 2”. Today we finishing up our conversation with Patrick S Weston of Westrock Investments. Just to remind everyone Patrick is a entrepreneur, investor, and medical doctor. If you haven’t already listened to episode 17, you may want to listen to that episode first. Otherwise, let’s get back to our conversation with Patrick.

Mirela Setkic:

Now, if I'm a small business and I'm interested in finding investors, other people like you to invest in me. How do I make my business more attractive to you?

Patrick Weston:

Yeah, that's a tough one. That's a whole 'nother- That's a whole 'nother Kickin' it with Kapok episode.

Mirela Setkic:

You know, obviously, I want a shortcut, just like every person. Oh, give me one thing.

Patrick Weston:

Well, I guess, know your audience. Know who you're trying to attract to your business. You'll meet a lot of investors who are just strictly financial investors. So, if they're gonna give you money, they wanna see some sort of pro forma. They wanna see, "Okay, my money's gonna be locked up for this long. "What kind of returns am I gonna get? "When am I gonna get it back? "How are we gonna exit?" And so, if they see that, and it kind of meets their hurdle, their objective, and they believe in you, and believe that you can actually follow through, there's a pretty good chance that they're gonna give you your money. Other investors, obviously, are going to have different criteria. They may just believe in you as a person. I like working with Mirela, and whatever, let's just do it.

Mirela Setkic:

Even if she shows up with a napkin with some numbers on it. She's like, "Yeah, This is what my business does." If you like me as a person, then you're more likely to take a chance on me.

Patrick Weston:

Yeah, and I like you as a person. I think you are gonna be successful. I don't really know how much money I'm going to get out of this thing, but I just wanna be like, in the same room.

Mirela Setkic:

Okay, okay, okay.

Patrick Weston:

I think good things are gonna happen, so let's do it. It differs.

Jake Braun:

So here's a good question: What's more important: Someone being a savvy business owner or them having a good business plan?

Patrick Weston:

Someone, you say-

Jake Braun:

So, some who has a great idea and they've got a plan to do the idea, but maybe you don't trust that they're necessarily a good business person, or the savvy business person who maybe doesn't have the idea? Which one would you, how do you weigh those two things?

Patrick Weston:

Well what I would say personally, which everyone may not agree with is that business plans are good to have, but, what are you gonna do when that plan doesn't work? I will always go with the business person or the management team.

Mirela Setkic:

I agree.

Patrick Weston:

Or the business plan

Mirela Setkic:

I agree.

Patrick Weston:

If you look at business plans, you'll never find a business plan that shows going out of business in three years.

Mirela Setkic:

That's right.

Patrick Weston:

Every single business plan that you'll ever read is gonna show numbers marching upward and they're gonna be profitable But, you know in reality that doesn't even come close to ever happening.

Jake Braun:

Lots of businesses fail within three years.

Patrick Weston:

Lots of businesses.

Mirela Setkic:

Lots of them, yeah.

Patrick Weston:

So, you take the business plan with a grain of salt knowing that there's a good chance, most likely, it's not going to work out the way that- and that's not just for small entrepreneurs. You think about multi-billion dollar businesses that start up that ultimately fail. And the tech space is littered with companies that had multi-billion dollar evaluations and now are worth zero.

Mirela Setkic:

Exactly. Had the plan, had the passion, but didn't have the business sense and just couldn't make it happen. It's just kind of if you go out and get a cookbook. And I am a terrible cook, but I go get my Martha Stewart book, a cookbook, and I go home. It's a great book. It has all the recipes, but I can't make it happen. Everything I cook in there is gonna be like crap.

Patrick Weston:

That's right. You need Martha Stewart.

Mirela Setkic:

Exactly.

Jake Braun:

That's why all these celebrity chefs don't worry about putting out the cookbook.

Patrick Weston:

That's right.

Jake Braun:

They know you're still gonna go to the restaurant.

Mirela Setkic:

Exactly. Exactly.

Patrick Weston:

Exactly right.

Mirela Setkic:

They know that all of us-

Patrick Weston:

They're like, "Here you go. "Good luck."

Mirela Setkic:

Good luck! Exactly. So, I agree with you. Always go with the good business person.

Patrick Weston:

That's right.

Mirela Setkic:

Who has good business sense.

Patrick Weston:

That's right.

Mirela Setkic:

If someone can't deliver on the plan, the plan is just a plan.

Jake Braun:

Yeah, the plan's gonna shift. The plan is just your best guess at whatever point you created it.

Mirela Setkic:

Exactly, and you're right. No one talks about the failure.

Patrick Weston:

Yeah, no one talks about it.

Mirela Setkic:

No one.

Patrick Weston:

Yeah.

Mirela Setkic:

Ever. And you know what I find very interesting? Even when people make it and they start and then two years later they've "made it" and they talk about how things have been, no on ever talks about, "My first office was crap. "I didn't make any money for a year." No one likes to talk about the ugly, real stuff.

Patrick Weston:

It's true. I think its sort of a flaw in our society or something like that. It's hard to show your failures.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah!

Patrick Weston:

And it's hard to show your struggles. It's much easier to put on a good face and I think society in general, we like a good story. We like to see how things turned out well at the end. For the first decade, when you were struggling, eating raviolis out of a can, no one was paying any attention to you.

Mirela Setkic:

No! No.

Patrick Weston:

It's only after you've made it and then you get the notoriety.

Mirela Setkic:

It's very weird that there's very little value assigned to the actual hustle and the struggle. Of you waking up at three AM

Patrick Weston:

I totally agree with you.

Mirela Setkic:

and sending out emails and then going to your real job while you're trying to get your business off the ground. No one wants to talk about that.

Patrick Weston:

That's not sexy.

Mirela Setkic:

I know! You're right! It's not sexy.

Patrick Weston:

They wanna see me stepping out of my jet.

Jake Braun:

Yep. Yep.

Mirela Setkic:

Yes! Until you get that jet, until you get that Tesla, that Ferrari you're like, "This guy is not- "I don't want to be seen with this guy." And that's so wrong.

Patrick Weston:

That's not realistic.

Mirela Setkic:

It's not realistic. We all start somewhere and it's not pretty. It's scary and you have mental breakdowns and all this stuff When we started Kapok, in the first two weeks I told Jake I was selling my house and I was moving away. No one is ever gonna find me because it was so scary. And that's the truth and it was just so much.

Patrick Weston:

But I think those experiences, they make you tougher. It's like school of hard knocks.

Mirela Setkic:

I know.

Patrick Weston:

I don't think you can have the success down the road without going through that.

Mirela Setkic:

No.

Patrick Weston:

I think you need to be able to- that's where all the learning, like we were talking about earlier, that's where all the learning happens. That's where you gain the experience. That's where you gain the knowledge. That's where you gain the judgment.

Mirela Setkic:

Yes.

Patrick Weston:

I think those early experiences are very valuable.

Mirela Setkic:

I agree. I agree. So, I guess we're talking about business and starting out, do you wanna talk about entrepreneurs and what they should be doing, advice?

Jake Braun:

Do we have any other recommendations or tips or anything for other aspiring entrepreneurs out there.

Patrick Weston:

We kind of touched on a couple of things. Finding good mentors. Finding good partners. I think I talked being very wary about who you associated yourself with. It's very important. One thing that I would say is take the time to get to know people. You'd be surprised. Looks can be deceiving and we have this tendency to put our judgements on people without actually getting to know them. You'd be surprised the things that you can learn and come to know if you just take the time to get to know someone and really get to know them deeply.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah.

Patrick Weston:

Like I didn't know you were a rap head.

Mirela Setkic:

I am?

Patrick Weston:

You like old school, New York rap We were talking about this one day, remember? I was like, "You know who these people are?"

Mirela Setkic:

Of course I know.
I grew up listening to hip hop as an immigrant.

Patrick Weston:

I would have never guessed it, see? That was my own short coming.

Mirela Setkic:

So, when you met me, what kind of music did you think I listened to?

Patrick Weston:

I have no idea. I would have never said rap music.

Mirela Setkic:

I love hip hop and as an immigrant, when my family moved here in the late nineties, I could kind of relate to the struggle and the culture and it spoke to me and it just always stayed with me and it's just my music.

Patrick Weston:

Right, right.

Mirela Setkic:

But when people meet me and they're like. "Oh, really you listen to that?" Yeah, I listen to that. But, yeah, most people don't know that. They're shocked.

Patrick Weston:

Yeah, I wouldn't have guessed it. The other thing I don't know is the reading. You're a big reader. I didn't know that.

Mirela Setkic:

I do love to read, but I have been slacking off this year. I have been having my sinus stuff and I haven't been feeling well and I've kind of fallen behind in my reading, but I do love to read and just to kind of get away and, at least mentally and just kind of read about other peoples' successes and failures and kind of see how they did it and how I should do it. So, yeah, I do love to read and I do love hip hop a lot.

Patrick Weston:

Who knew?

Mirela Setkic:

Who knew? I didn't really know that you liked The Roots. I didn't know that you like hip hop.

Patrick Weston:

Yep, yep.

Mirela Setkic:

I would have guessed your more of the classical guy.

Patrick Weston:

I give off that classical music vibe.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah!
I don't know Patrick-

Patrick Weston:

I don't know what that is, but I need to stop doing that.

Mirela Setkic:

Patrick's so smart. He's very calm and it's just how we perceive people and like you said, get to know people and see what they're about.

Jake Braun:

I think that's a really good point and it doesn't even have to be business people. Everyone has a story and something you can learn from.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah, I agree. I don't know if we had this on the agenda, but we should talk about what has been your biggest challenge or struggle of switching from medicine to business and how are you adjusting.

Patrick Weston:

One of my biggest struggles, I would say just getting started. That's just always the biggest struggle. Trying to find the balance in life because you have this idea, something that you want, but you're really trying to pull together resources. Whether that be money, maybe that be connections, opportunities. Those are some of the struggles that I faced and even still, I met a guy at a meeting and we exchanged business cards. I really wanted to follow-up with him. I must have sent this guy emails and phone calls for like a month. He never got back to me. I thought that he'd be someone who could be really helpful, be very insightful, but it's things like that: getting access to people, getting access to opportunities, business deals. Raising money. Raising money's a huge one. And those are all parts of just starting up and it's really tough, too, if you're starting out and you're starting out as your side hustle and you have all the responsibilitieslike your job or your family. And also, if it's just you with an idea, you don't really have all the people to lean on, so even building a team can be tough.

Mirela Setkic:

Yes, you're right. You're just alone with your idea.

Patrick Weston:

Right.

Mirela Setkic:

And you're talking to yourself a lot and then that starts to feel like you safe space and then the next step is stepping out of that and putting that out there publicly and that's scary because you haven't really-

Patrick Weston:

To people that'll judge you.

Mirela Setkic:

Exactly.

Patrick Weston:

Like, "What are you doing?"

Mirela Setkic:

I know.

Patrick Weston:

"Why are you doing this?" I got that so much. It was like, "You finished medical school. "You did all this training, what are you doing?"

Jake Braun:

Yeah

Patrick Weston:

"Why are you going back to school? "Why are you getting this other education? "Why do you want to do this? "Just sit back and go make some money."

Mirela Setkic:

Ride the wave.

Jake Braun:

We've talked about this on the podcast before. So many people told us not to start Kapok Marketing.

Mirela Setkic:

So many.

Patrick Weston:

Is that right?

Mirela Setkic:

Oh my gosh.

Jake Braun:

"Stick with your job you've got. "You're making a good amount of money. "Why would you rock the boat? "Why would you do that? "That's silly."

Mirela Setkic:

Oh, yeah and close family members, in my case. Just, "Stay where you are. "Ride the wave. "Are you crazy? "You're making so much money. "Whatever happens happens." And I just couldn't convince them or communicate to them that I have plateaued at my current job at that time. I needed something more. It just wasn't filling up my tank. But, some people don't understand that.

Patrick Weston:

Well, I always say, people don't see things how things are in reality. They see things how they are. So, they're probably going into their head and thinking to themselves, "I'm afraid for Jake and Mirela. "Don't do this. "And so I'm doing you a favor by telling you "stick with job, don't take any risks, "cause I wouldn't take any risks."

Mirela Setkic:

Exactly.

Patrick Weston:

"I'm freaked out, so let me just give you some advice."

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah, you're right.

Patrick Weston:

"And now I feel better because "I told you how I feel."

Mirela Setkic:

"I did my job."

Patrick Weston:

That happens a lot, you'd be surprised.

Jake Braun:

They're projecting their fears a little bit.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah, I've had family members tell me, "Oh my gosh. "I just wish that you would have gotten a better degree. "I wish that you would have become an engineer or a doctor "so you don't have to go through all these things. "Your job would be more secure." It's like, I don't want to be an engineer. I don't want to be a doctor. It's not in me. I only have one life, I don't want to be miserable.

Patrick Weston:

And all of the people, that security- some people say, "I don't need to be secure. "I'm secure knowing that I'm doing what I want to be doing." "That's security."

Mirela Setkic:

Yes!

Patrick Weston:

The job is not security.

Mirela Setkic:

No! The job can just be a cage that's keeping you in and keeping you down and keeping you depressed.

Jake Braun:

And it's an illusion that it's secure, too. You don't control that business. It could go out of business, too. You just don't know because you're not the owner or on the board and know the information.

Mirela Setkic:

Exactly or you can get fired.

Jake Braun:

Yeah, laid off.

Mirela Setkic:

Or whatever the case is, but it's very scary and challenging when you're kind of in between your main job and then your side piece, like hustle situation. It's like, oh my gosh, making that leap is so tough.

Patrick Weston:

Right, and the other thing, too, is that people, they build an identity for you. They come to know you as a certain individual and when you do something different, you don't match the image they have of you. So, they see me as Patrick the doctor. "What are you doing over here "reading these financial statements? "You should be reading-"

Jake Braun:

I had never thought of that. That's a really interesting point.

Mirela Setkic:

That's a good point. It's almost like you're messing with their perception of you. It's like, "Whoa. "You don't have any business doing that."

Patrick Weston:

Yeah, because they don't see you as a business person. They see you how they come to know you. It's hard for people to see you in a different light.

Mirela Setkic:

It's very true. I think recently I was in Instagram, of course, wasting time, and actor, Idris Elba, he was on there and he just did a little video and he's giving people advice and he said, "Distance yourself from people "who always want to put you in a box "and they always have an idea of who you should be "at a specific time in your life." And he talks about how he's a DJ and at his age, everyone's like, "What are you doing?" I think he's in his forties or fifties, "You don't have any business being a DJ. "Just quit that." And he's saying, "No, I love being a DJ. "It's my thing." And he's just talking about how people who are like that are so dangerous and they will keep you down hard. But, it's so hard to say no to those voices.

Patrick Weston:

Yeah, it's hard. That's why I think it's just so important to surround yourself, like I said, with people you admire, with good people, people that you want to be like. For me, I try to surround myself by people I think are successful business people and successful entrepreneurs and kind of use them as a model, use them as a sounding board, and for me, it's inspiring. Even like podcasts I listen to, books about people who are successful, those are all good ways for me to quiet the negative thoughts in my head and kind of focus on what I know to be valuable to me. It's what true.

Mirela Setkic:

That's true and find that thing that's speaking to you

Patrick Weston:

Exactly.

Mirela Setkic:

Instead of just listening to all these voices and yeah, it's very tough. The little voices can really get you down and especially if it's someone who's close to you and you love, like family member, friend.

Patrick Weston:

Yeah, it can be really difficult.

Mirela Setkic:

"Mom, I didn't know you felt like this about me "I thought you thought I could do anything." But, I guess you have to dial it back and realize Mom is just speaking out of fear. She loves you and she's scared that this is not gonna work out.

Patrick Weston:

Many people do speak out of fear.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah, and many people choose not to do anything out of fear.

Patrick Weston:

That's right.

Mirela Setkic:

And people decide to be indecisive out of fear.

Patrick Weston:

That's right.

Mirela Setkic:

It's so crazy how fear feels safe.

Patrick Weston:

That's right. It's the change.

Mirela Setkic:

It's weird.

Patrick Weston:

It's something that you know. The unknown is scary.

Jake Braun:

Yeah.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah.

Patrick Weston:

It's funny, it's like people being in a bad relationship.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah.

Patrick Weston:

It's bad but,

Mirela Setkic:

At least it's a relationship

Patrick Weston:

At least I know what this bad is. I don't wanna know what happens if I have to be alone or if this person leaves or something like that.

Jake Braun:

Yeah.

Patrick Weston:

It happens to a lot of people. The unknown can be a very scary place.

Mirela Setkic:

I agree.

Patrick Weston:

And failure can be scary, too.

Mirela Setkic:

Yes, and especially if you're by yourself and it's like, "Oh my God, I don't know." I think from the beginning, Jake and I have been lucky to have each other as business partners and we can kind of pick each other up.

Patrick Weston:

That's really great.

Mirela Setkic:

And call each other out. And eventually we started adding employees and just having other people, in addition to ourselves, it's a game changer.

Patrick Weston:

Yeah, it's really great.

Mirela Setkic:

Things become real and now we have people, we're doing stuff, and it's amazing.

Patrick Weston:

Yeah, you guys are doing great. I mean, look at this. I'm Kickin' It with Kapok.

Mirela Setkic:

I know, right?

Patrick Weston:

I would have never thought, a year ago, I would have never thought I'd be here, right now.

Mirela Setkic:

It's so crazy. I don't even know where we thought we were going. What did you think we'd be doing a year from a year ago?

Jake Braun:

I wanted to do a podcast before I even started Kapok Marketing.

Mirela Setkic:

Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're right. Jake is the reason that we're doing this podcast.

Jake Braun:

The podcast isn't that amazing. I mean, it's a good podcast.

Patrick Weston:

Why did you wanna do a podcast?

Jake Braun:

I don't know, a couple of years ago I started listening to a podcast and I just got enthralled with the idea. I just thought it was a really cool medium and bring people in and talk to them and basically, like you were saying earlier, just connect with people and hear their story and at the same time, share that story with other people.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah, and one of our goals as a marketing agency is to teach local organizations about marketing and teach them about ins and outs of business, the good and the bad and this is such a great platform for doing that and we get to sit here and have a conversation, which is super enjoyable, but then, afterwards, that conversation continues when other people are watching and listening and they're having conversations. So, it's kind of like a gift that keeps on giving and I have to be honest, I did not understand and appreciate that when Jake approached me with this idea six months ago. I thought, "Oh my God, this is so crazy. "I'm gonna sound stupid. "I'm gonna look stupid. "Who wants to listen to me? "Who am I? "This is not gonna work out." And I was wrong.

Jake Braun:

And it's a very interesting medium. There's a lot of successful people that listen to podcasts. A lot of high income people listen to podcasts. So, it's a very interesting subset of people that you can reach with a podcast and it's probably because you can do it while you're driving, while you're on the treadmill. So, it allows people who are trying to get a lot accomplished to learn something while they're doing something else.

Mirela Setkic:

Exactly.

Patrick Weston:

So let me ask you. What would you say would be the most interesting thing that you've learned or experienced since you've been doing these podcasts? What would you say?

Jake Braun:

I'm not sure. It's been a real learning experience, learning the equipment to get.

Patrick Weston:

I guess I meant from someone else.

Jake Braun:

Oh.

Patrick Weston:

Of the people that you've interviewed, what's been the most interesting thing that you've learned about someone?

Mirela Setkic:

About someone, I've learned a couple of things. I've learned about these advisory boards, which I never knew existed. I thought you're a corporation and you have a formal board of directors, but then I realized that you can have a board of advisors who are just there to help you and they don't really get paid a lot. Usually, they're like retired people and the other thing that I've learned is that everyone is different when we start recording.

Jake Braun:

Yeah, I agree. I'll take that. That's the most interesting thing is everyone is a different person, for the most part, on the podcast, in some slight way.

Patrick Weston:

Yeah, but you're pretty consistent, actually.

Jake Braun:

I think you're the most-

Mirela Setkic:

You're the most kind of even person that we've had, but most people, they either get really quiet, they start talking really quickly, or they just develop a whole new personality. It's like, "I didn't know that Bob is like this. "What's going on?" And it's very, very different.

Jake Braun:

Not different in a bad way.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah, yeah, it's good. Actually, it allows us to really get to know people. We're all nervous, including myself. I'm nervous right now and I'm also worried that I sound sick, 'cause I am really sick. But, when you reveal all these insecurities and you're in this tight space, you really have to work with each other and you really get to know people.

Jake Braun:

Yeah, and you can learn things about people that you wouldn't otherwise, like you might ask them a question that you would never ask them if there wasn't this idea that it's being broadcast out there. I think you had that happen with Dale, maybe not Dale, but the Howard guy, where we learned about Dale's grandfather a little bit more.

Mirela Setkic:

Oh, yeah. You just have conversations and you realize that you're connected to all these people and you had to idea. It's crazy. Well, the other thing that I've learned is that nothing ever goes according to the plan and I kind of knew that before we started recording this, but this really dialed it in for me. It's like, "no." We have an outline. We can rehearse it all day long. When the camera turns on,

Patrick Weston:

It goes out the window.

Mirela Setkic:

Maybe I become a different person, like yesterday, we were practicing a little before the podcast and I was talking to Jake and Sammy, and I said, "I don't know guys. "Why are we practicing? "Tomorrow I'm going to be a different person." And they thought I was in insane. But, I think it happens and so, I don't know. Every episode is different. We learn new things. It's exciting.

Jake Braun:

Yeah.

Mirela Setkic:

So, do we wanna talk about anything else?

Jake Braun:

Is there anything else that we should have asked you, but we haven't?

Mirela Setkic:

I know.

Patrick Weston:

Well, I just have one other question for you guys. With respect to the people that you've had on your podcast, is there anyone that you would recommend that I get know? To contact, to reach out to.

Mirela Setkic:

Howard.

Jake Braun:

Yeah.

Mirela Setkic:

Howard Task.

Patrick Weston:

And why do you say that?

Mirela Setkic:

Well, he has been in business and marketing for a long time, I think thirty plus years. He's located in Ohio, but he's a professional- He calls himself a professional board member. He sits on different advisory boards for different companies, and like big companies, like Stanley Steemer and he's very connected in the business world and in marketing so I think he would be- and he's also really cool people to talk to and he has a good personality. So, yeah, I think he would be a good match for you.

Patrick Weston:

I'll definitely do that.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah, I liked Howard and he actually sits on the board, I don't know if it's the real board or the board of advisors for my first boss's company, which is located in Ohio, J.T. Eaton & Company.

Patrick Weston:

Okay.

Mirela Setkic:

And he sits on their board.

Patrick Weston:

Okay, cool.

Mirela Setkic:

So, we'll connect you with Howard. I think you'll like him.

Patrick Weston:

That's great.

Mirela Setkic:

I like how Patrick is asking all these good questions.

Jake Braun:

Dale did this to us, too, in the podcast, ask us a question or make a comment in the podcast.

Mirela Setkic:

Oh, yeah, Dale, who's my very first boss, he went nuts in the podcast, in a good way. He turned a table on us and was asking us questions and I'm like, "Oh my God. "Am I gonna have these answers?" And I was itching, but it wasn't in the video. So, that was a little bit more comforting. But, you don't know. People just, things just jump at you. So, anything else you wanna talk about?

Patrick Weston:

I don't think so. I think it's been great. I really enjoyed this.

Jake Braun:

Alright. If anyone wants to connect with you, do you have a website or anyway they could learn more about you and what you're doing?

Patrick Weston:

Yeah, I have a couple of websites.

Mirela Setkic:

They're really good. Go ahead, Patrick.

Patrick Weston:

Best way to reach me is at my website, WestonAtWork.com, or you can just type in my name, PatrickSWeston.com.

Mirela Setkic:

Oh, they should find you on Twitter.

Patrick Weston:

Or you can find me on Twitter.

Mirela Setkic:

Patrick does enjoy Twitter.

Patrick Weston:

That's right.

Mirela Setkic:

So, they can find you there. Any other places they can find you?

Patrick Weston:

Or on my website WestrockInvestments.com

Jake Braun:

Alright, sounds good. Thank you for joining us today.

Patrick Weston:

Thank you.

Jake Braun:

Well it’s been a great 18th episode. We’d like to again thank Patrick S Weston from Westrock Investments for joining us today. If you’re enjoying the podcast, please make sure you’ve subscribed. Also we’d be very grateful if you could leave us a rating or review on iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcast. It really helps us out a lot. Feel free to reach out to us if you have any questions or comments about anything we talked about today or marketing in general. You can visit us on our website, KickinItWithKapok.com, or on social media. We're on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter as Kapok Marketing. This has been Kickin’ it with Kapok brought to you by Kapok Marketing. Thanks for listening. We’ll have something just as great for you next time.