How to Find, Interview, and Hire Great Employees

Episode Transcript

Jake Braun:

Hello everyone. Welcome to Kickin' it with Kapok, a podcast about business owners, marketing struggles and solutions, and other business-related topics. This is episode three, "How to Find, Interview, and Hire Great Employees."
On this episode we'll be discussing, as the title suggests, some of our takeaways from interviewing nearly 1,000 people. We'll also discuss some mistakes we made early on, and what you can learn from our mistakes.
So, when do you start looking for an employee? What do you think, Mirela?

Mirela Setkic:

I think that in the past we thought, or I thought, that one should start looking for an employee when you need that person, when you are overwhelmed with the amount of work that you have and you need someone to step in. But over the years I think we have learned that you should start looking a little bit before that point where you are kind of overloaded with work, so you can actually have a good amount of time to search and also make a more of a, I guess, levelheaded decision about a person. If you are in some type of a crunch then you might not be making the most objective decision when you're chosing that employee. You might be under some pressure just to choose the first person that comes in for the interview, which doesn't always mean that that is the right person for the job.

Jake Braun:

Yeah and maybe we talked about this a little bit in the previous episode with Jessica, that if it's one of your first people you're hiring too, maybe you'll have some reservations or maybe it will be a little bit more difficult for you to pull the trigger on that first person or one of those first people. So I would say earlier on maybe give yourself even a little bit more time.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah. I agree; you definitely don't want to put yourself under a lot of pressure. And you want to really take your time. And I'm not saying take forever to find a person, because there is no such thing as a perfect person. But you want to find the best person that you can find.

Jake Braun:

Yeah, you don't want to fall into the perfect trap, and not to give away yet another interview question, but I ask people, "is it better to be 'perfect and late' or 'good and on time'"? And the right answer is 'good and on time' because you can never be perfect, you can always take more time and make it a little bit better.

Mirela Setkic:

Exactly. One of the other things that you really should not be trying to do is find kind of a replica of yourself. Because at the end of the day, no one is going to be exactly like you and he or she is not going to have the exactly level of passion about your business as you are, because you are the owner and you are reaping the most amount of benefits from your own business. So no one should really, you know, hand over their entire life to your business so they can help you run that business.

Jake Braun:

Well yeah, and you don't want a copy of yourself either, you want someone who has complementary skills. Maybe hire someone who doesn't know the things that you know, but does know the things that you don't know.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah. I agree, because you don't want two people with the same skills. It's good to have kind of a mixed basket of skills at your place of business.

Jake Braun:

And also think about the things that you don't want to be doing and make sure you hire someone that's going to be able to do the things that you don't want to do, so they can take over those tasks.

Mirela Setkic:

That's very true.

Jake Braun:

So how do you find that first employee? Where do you go to find a good employee for your business?

Mirela Setkic:

Man, so many places! And I'm not really sure if they're the best place that kind of suits every single line of business. Think about where do people who are in your industry get together, where do they go to look for jobs? How do they find information? If most people in your industry are more likely to look for jobs on LinkedIn, post your job there. If they're more like to look for jobs on Craigslist then post it there.
Also, that depends on, I guess the level of the position. Is the position an entry-level position, a mid-level position? Or is it a higher management position? If someone is looking for a more executive level, he or she is probably more likely to look on, not Craigslist, to look on LinkedIn or Monster. But that doesn't mean that you cannot find qualified executive-level people on Craigslist, you're just less likely to find them there than you are to find them on LinkedIn or Monster.

Jake Braun:

Yeah I think we've had pretty good success with entry-level employees, finding them on Indeed and Craigslist. And I think when you start to get to some of those more professional, executive-type people or computer programmers then you might even need to start thinking about getting a recruiter or a staffing agency to help you if you can't find the person using those online avenues.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah, that's very true. It also depends on the supply and demand in the industry. For example, there is a really high demand for professionals in the IT industry, so it's a lot tougher to find good people for those types of jobs. So you probably want to seek out a recruiting company that will help you find those individuals. Which will be significantly more expensive than going the Craigslist or Indeed route, but you are probably more likely to get more qualified people. So it's kind of quality over quantity.

Jake Braun:

Yeah, but those are probably the exceptions more than the rule for local businesses that might be listening to this podcast, if you're a boutique or a restaurant or someone like that looking for an entry-level employee. Craigslist, Indeed, maybe even your social media accounts are probably your best bet I would say.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah, probably. And I would say three or five years ago Craigslist was a great place to find entry-level employees, and I think at that time for this area they did not even charge any money to post a job listing on there. And then they, I think right now they charge $35 to do a job post on there, which, you know, is not a lot of money but it's not free.
And I have noticed within the last year, year and a half, that Indeed has kind of taken over and become more popular among people who are looking for entry level, or maybe even mid-level positions. It's free; you can post a job listing on there, it doesn't cost you any money. I think that they have options where you can upgrade it. I think they call it "sponsor" your listing, and you can get a broader reach for your job listing.
The good thing about Indeed is that you can actually set up questions where they can pre-qualify the people for you. So if you're only looking for applicants who live in the city of St. Pete, that can be one of the questions where you ask them where do they live and if they say St. Pete they are sent your way, if they say Palm Harbor then they are disqualified.

Jake Braun:

Okay. So let's move on to the next step which I guess is, you get all these resumes in after you've put your job listing out there. Now maybe we might be a little bit more selective; I know a lot of people might do phone interviews before they bring people in, but we go directly from resume to in-person interview most of the time. So what do we look for on resumes?

Mirela Setkic:

Well before I get to that point, I forgot to mention one more thing: where to post jobs. I think you mentioned social media. And one of the social media platforms that has been really helpful for us is Instagram. A lot of really qualified people find us on there and we always announce our jobs on Instagram. And it's free; it's a really good way to find people.
All right, so let's get back to the question that you asked. So, a few different things. Consistency, attention to detail. Grammar and spelling, just kind of looking overall how thought out and well organized a person's resume is.
For example, if a person misspells his or her name or if their telephone number is missing a number, whatever the case is, that tells me that that person did not spend enough time on their resume, which is significantly important in their job search. It kind of indicates to me that maybe that person is not that serious about whatever the task they're working on at the time. If you're misspelling things on your resume or not capitalizing things correctly, that kind of tells me that maybe if you are hired you are going to be doing similar things in the work that you're producing for our company.

Jake Braun:

Yeah we definitely have had a couple of people who had six digits in their phone number. Or what about when their name doesn't match their email, like their email signature will be "Thanks, John Smith" but then the resume will say, you know, "Jane Fonda" or whatever the case may be.

Mirela Setkic:

If I could really tell people one thing about their resumes, is to really, really try to use a professional email address. A lot of people send things from someone else's email account. I'm not really sure, they're using a different alias when they're emailing people, and then their name is completely different than their resume. That's very weird. I don't know what's going on with that. Most of the time I don't even care to follow up with them.
Other times people will use weird email addresses like, you know, "sexylegs53@gmail.com." That's very unprofessional; it really should be something that is less out there and more kind of just like your name, your last name and something that's more professional sounding and looking.

Jake Braun:

Yeah, even if you have to create a new Gmail just for your job search, it's probably worth it. And then we also have the people who email us but say, you know, "I haven't had a job for the past 10 years so I don't have a resume but I'd like to apply for the job anyways."

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah! I'm always really shocked by people who email us knowing that we require a resume to apply for any of the open positions that we have. And we also ask for a cover letter.
They definitely sometimes tell us that they are definitely very, very interested in the position but they haven't had a job for X number of years. Therefore they don't have a resume, so they would like to know if they can come in and, you know, meet us in person so we can see how awesome they are.
And I have never responded to one of those email messages. I don't even know what to say. I guess I would want to ask why don't you have a resume, or why didn't you just create one before you emailed me? So, I honestly don't get that stuff.

Jake Braun:

Yeah, if you're not going to put in the effort, I mean the employer is not going to either. I mean the employer puts a lot of effort into writing the job listing, interviewing the people. I think if you're a potential employee the least you can do is also put your best foot forward.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah. And my advice to other business owners or decision-makers is not to even waste your time with people who don't even care to put in the time to send you the information that you ask for in your job listing.

Jake Braun:

If they're not following a few basic steps. As long as you're not creating a complex process. If they're not following the basic, simple steps of applying for the job, they're probably not going to listen to instruction very well if you do decide to hire them, for whatever reason.

Mirela Setkic:

I agree. One of the other red flags that we have noticed over the years is people who jump from job to in the same industry, and they do it very often. So we will have someone who has worked at five different telemarketing places within a two-year period, in the same city. Which, you know, I don't think that there's anything wrong with deciding "I don't want to work in this industry; I'm going to go try something else. I am working at a call center, maybe I want to work in retail." That's totally fine. But when someone has five different jobs in the same industry within a 10-mile radius, it's a red flag. That person is jumping around, is not committed to any of those jobs. And they're probably more likely to do the same thing when they start working with you.

Jake Braun:

Yeah, I think things that you see, where they are changing location or like you said, changing industry, those aren't red flags at all, that's perfectly reasonable. There are many valid reasons someone might want to change what their career path is in terms of industry or they need to move for any number of great reasons.
But if you have a lot of jobs, in fast food, if you worked at McDonald's and then Wendy's and then Burger King and then Arby's, why didn't you ever progress at any of those jobs? Why didn't you become an assistant manager, or any of those things?
Looking at it logically, is there a pattern to what the person is doing? Or are they just, you know, hopping around aimlessly?

Mirela Setkic:

If someone is just floating around and just doing whatever the flavor of the moment is, then that's probably a red flag. He or she has some type of a problem with, either they don't know what they want to do, or they're always unhappy with their job. There is something going on.

Jake Braun:

How long are they even going to stay with you? Do you want someone who is going to work at your establishment for two or three months and then move on elsewhere? I don't think that that's good for any business or any level, entry-level or advanced employee or whoever you are.
So what about people who are overqualified? Or they have a law degree and they are applying for, you know, customer service representative? We get those, you know, one out of every 20 resumes maybe.

Mirela Setkic:

Those are really tough. A few years ago, well I guess 10 years ago, when the economy was bad, you know 2007, 2008 when companies were letting go of their employees and we had a lot of qualified candidates in the job market and they were just pretty much looking for any type of a job. So I think I was more understanding back then when someone who was maybe slightly more qualified, but he or she wanted to find any type of a job, they just wanted to get their foot in the door.
Today, the job market is totally different, and I think that overall, obviously, there are exceptions. People are still, today they are able to find the jobs that match their skillsets. And if someone is an attorney who is looking at a customer service position, it kind of gives me a little bit of, I guess, a reason to pause, and wonder what happened. Did this person get disbarred? Did something terrible happen?
So we have never brought in anyone who, maybe once or twice we have brought in someone who was overqualified and we found out that it just wasn't going to work out, because there was some type of a deeper issue that that person was struggling with in life, and they were just kind of trying a whole bunch of different things just to keep moving with their life. But in the end, they wouldn't have been happy with that position. So, if someone is overqualified, it's probably not fair to you or to them to hire them for a position that's way below their skill set.

Jake Braun:

And this only applies to people who are maybe vastly overqualified, like that attorney looking for a customer service position. If you have someone who's maybe a little bit overqualified, especially if you have that employee's next job at your company, if they can advance within your company to get to that point relatively quickly, then someone who is a little bit overqualified may be a good match.

Mirela Setkic:

I agree. One of the things that we have noticed, or I have noticed, over the years, is if someone who has a strong background or work experience in management who is used to, or has experience in managing a large team of people, and now they're applying for a position where they would be managed by someone else and they would be more in like an entry-level position, those types of candidates usually don't work out in those positions.
Because at the end of the day, they have like that management blood in their system, and they constantly kind of, I don't know if it's intentional or if somehow they just slip and even though they understand that their position is entry-level, they end up kind of switching into the management mode and they start bossing around their teammates. And it kind of creates a very, very weird situation. So if you have someone with strong management background applying for a non-management position, I would seriously consider maybe not hiring that person.

Jake Braun:

I'm sure there's exceptions, like anything else. But I think once you get into management, if you enjoy it, then I think you're stuck in that sort of management mindset, much like we're probably stuck in an owner mindset now. I don't know if we would be able to go work for someone else, or it would be difficult for us maybe to go work for someone else at this point now that we own our own business.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah. I agree. I don't know if it's just human nature, that you just become programmed to behave or think a different way. I don't know enough about the human nature to know that. But I had definitely noticed that trend in the past.

Jake Braun:

The last thing on resumes, unless you have anything else, sometimes you get those really crazy things that just make you wonder, what was this person thinking? And we get people who have, you know, watermarked their photo behind their resume. I don't know if you have any other examples you want to bring up, without naming any names?

Mirela Setkic:

I have a lot of examples! And I'm sure that other people who might be listening to the podcast have received resumes from some of these people who are, I think, infamous in this area for applying for different jobs.
They said weird things, like there's a guy who's always applying for all the position, especially sales positions, who promises to make it rain for your organization, and he promises to make you $1.3 million first year. There's that guy; there's the guy who has his creepy face as the watermark for his cover letter.
People send weird photos. They do photo shoots with different props. They send pictures of themselves and their family at the mall. Picture of their pets. All kinds of weird things that are not necessary, or they're definitely not professional.

Jake Braun:

What about interview day? So we narrow the people down; we've gotten rid of the people who do really weird. How do you get the most out of the interview and learn what you need to learn in order to decide if that's the person you want to hire, or to compare and contrast that person with the other people who come in and also seem like they're a good fit?

Mirela Setkic:

I'm learning in this area. I think Jake, or you, come down on me in this area a lot because I am the person who wants to give everyone a chance, and I know that's not a good idea or the best business decision. So I have been trying to be a lot better with this.
But I think one of the best things that you can do is have a set number of questions and ask the same questions of all of the candidates. So you have a uniform thing that you can evaluate all of the candidates on. So at the end of the day you can sit down and look at how every single person answered each of the questions and you can compare them based on that.

Jake Braun:

But the questions can be different for different types of positions.

Mirela Setkic:

Yes.

Jake Braun:

You would use different questions for your customer service people versus your sales people or managers or whatever the different categories your business may have.
And in terms of questions, you can google good interview questions; there are tons of websites that will provide you countless numbers of examples of good questions and why they're good questions.

Mirela Setkic:

Good questions and legal question.

Jake Braun:

Yes, avoid illegal questions.

Mirela Setkic:

Yes. I think that people who don't have a lot of experience in interviewing employees and people who don't have an HR background, sometimes unintentionally end up asking inappropriate and often illegal questions. You know, asking people about their marital status, about their age and things like that. All of these things are not legally allowed to be asked during job interviews.

Jake Braun:

Yeah. Like Mirela said, we're not going to provide legal advice because we're not lawyers. But google "illegal interview questions" and make sure you don't ask any of those.

Mirela Setkic:

Yes. And you know, not only are these questions illegal, and they shouldn't be asked, but they also, whether or not you know if they're illegal, they also make you look bad, and they make you look unprofessional. And just as much as you are trying to choose the best employee for your organization, people who are coming in for the job are also trying to choose the best boss for themselves. And if you are the type of person who is asking illegal or inappropriate questions, chances are that, you know, the person that you choose for the job may not accept the job offer because you asked them inappropriate or illegal questions.

Jake Braun:

And the best candidates, they're going to be on Glassdoor before they even come into the interview and they're going to see that that someone already reported that you're asking stupid questions or illegal questions or whatever the case is and those good people aren't even applying for your jobs, let alone coming to the interview to you and hear your illegal questions.

Mirela Setkic:

Exactly.

Jake Braun:

What about exceptions? Briefly, you know, no shows, people who want to reschedule because, who knows.

Mirela Setkic:

Death by exceptions! I have been burnt and taken for a ride by potential job interviewees who have asked me to stay after our business hours so I can accommodate them because they currently have a job and they can not come to an interview until 6 p.m. on a Wednesday and I would say "Yeah of course; I will stay until 6 p.m." Or they will email me last minute and say, you know, "I can't come in for an interview tomorrow; my rabbit got ill today and I need to take him or her to the vet. So can I reschedule?"
So I always used to go out of my way to accommodate those applicants, because you know, at one point I was also a person who was looking for jobs and I was always appreciative, you know, when I had a good job interview experience. So whenever I try to accommodate people like that, nine out of 10 times that person ends up not showing up.

Jake Braun:

I'll go out on a limb and say it's 10 out of 10.

Mirela Setkic:

Okay, all right, fine! It's 10 out of 10 times. And now I have learned that the more insane the request for exception is, the higher likelihood it is that that person is not going to show up.

Jake Braun:

And this doesn't apply to the person who calls right before the interview and say, "Oh my gosh, my son ended up in the hospital. Like, here's a copy of hospital records" or whatever; "I'm not going to be able to make it today." If the person has an excuse that makes sense, and it seems logical, then that's a little bit different than maybe the person who just doesn't show up?

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah. It's always, you know, "I can't make it, can you stay till 6 p.m., till 7 p.m?" And I used to say, "Yes of course." And then I'm sitting here in my office, 6 p.m., no one comes, and no-shows are very common and actually, this last round of interviews that we did, one day we had eight interviews and five out of eight people did not show up, which was really crushing.
But one of the people who did not show up for one of those job interviews, he actually emailed us seven days later and said, "I didn't show up, you know, something came up in the family, but I'm sooo interested in this position; I still would like to come and interview." Which was ... insane.

Jake Braun:

And if something comes up, email before the interview; email five minutes before, 10 minutes before. Or even five minutes after. But it's got to be really close to when the interview is. You can't be emailing days later.

Mirela Setkic:

I agree. So that's definitely an indicator and a red flag. Pay attention to how prompt the person is in responding to you emails when you're trying to schedule the interview. Pay attention to what their sentence structure looks like if grammar is important to you. So just pay attention to the little details in your correspondence with that person, even before you get to meet them in person.

Jake Braun:

And then also the people who show up late, for example someone who comes to the interview 10 minutes late but then says, "I just happened to run into another interesting event on the way to this interview and that sidetracked me for 15 minutes." Do any excuses like that make sense?

Mirela Setkic:

No, they never make any sense, unless you were in a car accident or you felt down the stairs, which would be terrible and we would totally understand. But we recently had someone who was 10 minutes late to a job interview. Her excuse was, I guess she was walking to her car, on her way to the job interview. She ran into someone's dog in the apartment complex. And she had to play with the dog, and then after that she had to put the dog into her apartment, and I guess she ended up stealing someone's dog. I'm not really sure what happened there!
But that was the reason that she was late, which was insane. If you really want a job, there's no way that you would think that playing with a dog, and I know dogs are cute; I'm not a dog hater. But playing with a dog and being late to an interview is not acceptable.
We've also had someone who showed up an hour late, and walked in and said, "Oh I'm so sorry I'm an hour early," and tried to gaslight me into thinking that like I was the crazy person. She totally just tried to change the whole situation and convince me that she an hour early instead of being an hour late. And you know, obviously, I had proof, but I'm not Petty Betty, I'm going to take out my email and try to tell her how she's wrong. You know at that point she had, regardless of how qualified she was, she had no chance of getting a job.

Jake Braun:

Okay. So I guess to make sure we close out on a positive note, maybe we should focus on making that final decision and how do you know when you've found that great employee? What are the things you look for when you're comparing those people that came in for an interview, they did a really great job? You know, maybe you have five people out of 100, or out of 20. And the five people all did a really great job and they all have this one unique thing that you think would be great for your business; how do you make the decision between those five people?

Mirela Setkic:

This is very, very tough! And think that we, a lot of times actually end up creating multiple positions, because we like more than one person. And when I say "like," I don't mean we like their personality. We like that person because he or she is the most qualified for the position and they have the right skillset. And I'm not advocating that other people create multiple positions when they're just hiring for one position. I mean if you can do that and you can afford it, it's not a terrible idea.
But sometimes you only have one available position, and you can only afford to hire one person for that position, which is completely fine. And you narrow it down to five people, and then you have to take it from five to one. And it's very difficult, especially if you are the type of person who likes to go off of people's personalities, and you try to kind of pick the people that are the most aligned with your own personality.
And I think that sometimes can be a trap. So what we have found to be the best way to narrow down our candidates is to give them some type of a test, some type of an exercise that they can all do, and then we pick the best that one of the five people produced.

Jake Braun:

And go back to your original job description and think about, what is this person actually going to be doing at your company, what is their exact role. Just because someone has great talents that might be useful elsewhere in your organization, if you already have someone doing that, you need to keep in mind will they be good at the job that you actually need them to do. Not are they just a good person potentially at some job.

Mirela Setkic:

And I think during one of the interview processes that we recently did, we selected either three or five people that we liked, and we gave them an assignment, and gave them a deadline and they turned stuff in. And another person who interviewed for the job but didn't even make top five, actually just ended up submitting work and her work was the best out of all of the other people that we actually chose as our top three or five. And we ended up choosing her, because she produced the highest quality of work.
Sometimes, you can only learn so much about someone in an interview process. You probably have 30 to 45 minutes to learn about that person. So assigning them an assignment to do, maybe even before you narrow it down to five. Maybe like you narrow it down to 10 and then you assign all of those people something that they can submit back to you, and then you choose the best product.

Jake Braun:

Yeah, there's only so much you can learn in the interview. The very first employee that we hired, when we initially interviewed her we didn't even think that she was interested in the position because of, you know, the way the interview went. But we thought she was a great candidate and she ended up sending us a thank you email. And in the email, she talked about how interested she was in the position and it totally changed our mindset on her and we ended up hiring her. She's moved on, but she was a great employee and we would have missed out if she didn't send that thank you email.

Mirela Setkic:

That's very true. And sometimes someone is just having a bad day, or he or she is nervous during the job interview and they just kind of have a situation where they just blank or they freak out and they don't put their best foot forward. So if you don't give them another chance where they can do some type of an exercise or some type of a quiz or something where they send something to you then you might miss that person.

Jake Braun:

Yeah I would say the biggest thing is just be objective. And then I guess, just real briefly, so once you hire that person, you can give them a probationary period; do you think that's a good idea? To give them maybe another 30 or 60 days to prove themselves if you will?

Mirela Setkic:

Yes. Here at Kapok Marketing we have a 60-day probationary period. The person gets to, obviously it's a paid probationary period. We pay them, they're an employee, but they understand that after 60 days we will have a meeting with them if the employee is not doing as well. Maybe even at a 30-day mark, we have a meeting with the employee to tell him or her some of the things that they can improve.

Jake Braun:

I think it's super important to meet with them in the probationary period ...

Mirela Setkic:

Yes.

Jake Braun:

Especially if you have grievances, because it might be a misunderstanding; they might not understand that they should be doing X, Y, or Z, and I think you owe it to them to tell them at least once if not two or three times exactly what it is that they're missing that you expect so they have the opportunity to correct it.

Mirela Setkic:

Yes. You don't want to ambush someone, because at the end of the day we're all people and no one likes to be ambushed. If you are not raising your hand as their manager and telling them what your expectations are, then you are in a way cosigning the bad work that, you know, by your standards, that they're doing. So in order to do your job as the manager or as the person who makes the decisions, you need to make sure that you are paying attention to your new employees.

Jake Braun:

And even if you know if your heart that that person isn't going to work out as the employee, I think you still want to do that just to make sure that they don't walk away and think "Well those people didn't even give me a chance."

Mirela Setkic:

That's very true. Your reputation is on the line. You don't want to be the type of organization or company that doesn't invest time and other valuable resources helping new employees come onboard. It is definitely your responsibility to make sure that you go out of your way to make that start as successful as possible.

Jake Braun:

And of course that doesn't apply to extreme situations, someone who's committed a crime against your company or is somehow endangering other employees or anything like that. This is just for someone who is underperforming, misunderstands their job responsibilities, things of that nature?

Mirela Setkic:

Definitely. I'm not saying that someone who is committing crimes, being grossly negligent and things like that, or intentionally not showing up to work and things like that; all of those things are not acceptable. And at the end of the day you should have an employee handbook where all of these things are outlined and are read by every single employee who joins the organization, and there's a form that they sign that they acknowledge that they're read it, they understand everything, so you have that on file. So the expectation is set for everyone across the board.

Jake Braun:

Okay. That sounds like a good tip to end on here. Was there anything else you wanted to add in terms of hiring or finding that next great employee?

Mirela Setkic:

Don't be afraid to do it. It's a really good experience, and definitely start thinking and start looking for new employees before you become overwhelmed, so you can be in the best shape and the best state of mind to actually take your time to search, to ask the right questions and to find the right person. And overall it's a great experience. Usually, it changes the dynamic of your company in a positive way; you start growing, things start taking off. And overall it's definitely a great experience.

Jake Braun:

Well, that wraps up our third episode. Feel free to reach out to us if you have any questions or comments about anything we talked about today, or marketing in general. You can visit us on our website, KickinItWithKapok.com, or on social media. We're on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter as Kapok Marketing.
This has been Kickin' it with Kapok, brought to you by Kapok Marketing. Thanks for listening. We'll have something just as great for you next time.